This episode is the second part of a two-part discussion that explores what practices can help a collaborative be more sustainable and resilient. For part 2, we welcome back our colleagues from the Tamarack Institute, Liz Weaver and Mike Des Jardins, who recently authored a new, free-to-access resource called “10: A Guide for Building a Sustainable and Resilient Collaboration.”
In this second part, we discuss the practices and resources that can help support resiliency for collective impact efforts. Interviewing Liz and Mike for this conversation is Collective Impact Forum executive director Jennifer Splansky Juster. (You can listen to part 1 here.)
Please find a transcript of this talk further down this page.
References and Footnotes
- Listen to Part 1 of this discussion
- 10: A Guide for Building a Sustainable and Resilient Collaboration
- Sustainability Self-Assessment
- Webinar: How to Support a Sustainable and Resilient Collaboration
- How Field Catalysts Accelerate Collective Impact
More on Collective Impact
(Intro) Welcome to the Collective Impact Forum podcast, here to share resources to support social change makers working on cross-sector collaboration.
The Collective Impact Forum is a nonprofit field-building initiative that is co-hosted in partnership by the nonprofit consulting firm FSG and the Aspen Institute Forum for Community Solutions.
In this episode, we are continuing a deep dive discussion about what practices can help a collaborative be more sustainable and resilient. For this conversation, we welcome back our colleagues from the Tamarack Institute, Liz Weaver and Mike Des Jardins, who recently authored a new, free-to-access resource called “10: A Guide for Building a Sustainable and Resilient Collaboration.” As there was so many stories and resources shared in the guide, we made this a two-part conversation with Liz and Mike. In our last episode, we explored sustainability practices, and this episode, we dive into practices that can support resiliency for collaboration. Interviewing Liz and Mike for this conversation is Collective Impact Forum executive director Jennifer Splansky Juster. Let’s listen in.
Jennifer Splansky Juster: Hello, everybody, and welcome to today’s podcast. I’m Jennifer Juster, executive director of the Collective Impact Forum.
Here at the Forum and working with folks doing place-based collaboration, one of the most significant challenges I often hear folks facing is how do I sustain this work over time? And when we talk more, part of the challenge facing people relates to things like maintaining funding for the collaborative certainly. But another big piece of sustainability that folks often talk about is rooted in challenges related to keeping partners engaged over time and questions about how one collaborative can and should evolve over time and respond to changes in context. We all know we’ve had many changes in context in the last three years, certainly more before but that’s a very real phenomenon these days. So as we think about these different dimensions of keeping collaborative work going over time, it’s helpful to actually think about two related but unique ideas, sustainability but also resilience of a collaborative. That’s the topic we’re going to be diving into today.
I’m thrilled to be diving into it with colleagues at the Tamarack Institute. The Tamarack Institute recently published 10—A Guide to Sustainable and Resilient Collaboration, and here to discuss the guide with me today is the team that developed it, Liz Weaver and Mike Des Jardins of the Tamarack Institute. As I mentioned, this guide is focused on both sustainability and resilience. Today’s conversation is Part 2 of a pair of podcasts. Part 1 we discussed the themes related to sustainability, and today we are diving into resilience. You can find Part 1 on the CI Forum’s podcast feed as well, and we’re going to dive into resilience today.
Liz and Mike, welcome. I’m just going to do a quick bio so folks who didn’t listen to Part 1 know a little bit about what brings you here today. Liz Weaver is the co-CEO of the Tamarack Institute where she leads the Tamarack Learning Center, which is focused on advancing community change leadership. The Tamarack Learning Center promotes five strategic interconnected practices including collective impact, collaborative leadership, community engagement, community innovation, and evaluating community impact. Liz is well known for her thought leadership on collective impact and other topics and is the author of several popular and academic papers on the topic. She is passionate about the power and potential of communities getting to impact on complex issues.
Mike is the manager of sustainability and development for Communities Building Youths Future. In this role Mike is responsible for sustainability planning, researching and sharing best practices related to the sustainability and resilience of youth collective impact work, coaching CBYF communities on developing and implementing sustainability strategies and telling the story of impact. Mike is a certified teacher in the province of Ontario and has worked directly with youth through program and service delivery, and indirectly supporting youth by creating the system conditions to support their learning, development, and wellbeing.
So, Mike and Liz, welcome. We are so glad to have you here. I’d love to hear just briefly a little bit about what brings you to this work and your interest in resilience and sustainability.
Liz Weaver: I’ll kick us off. Thanks, Jen, for welcoming us to the podcast today. As I mentioned in my biography, or as you mentioned in my biography, I’m really passionate about communities and the capacity of communities to drive change forward, and to really think about how they transform systems.
Part of this is grounded in the fact that I led a place-based initiative in my home community prior to joining Tamarack where we were trying to move the needle on poverty. I think I bring kind of a sensibility of what it takes to move change forward and the challenge of moving change forward over a longer period of time, over a 10-year period of time, over a 20-year period of time, and what does it take to sustain the energy and the momentum in that kind of work, but also, how do you navigate the changes that come up in community in real time that you already mentioned. Over to you, Mike.
Mike Des Jardins: For 20 years I was working in Hamilton and supporting youth and community in educational settings, but then an opportunity presented itself with the Communities Building Youth Futures initiative at the Tamarack Institute, and I just couldn’t say no. It’s exciting to work with communities that are focused on supporting young people and their leadership and their future outcomes. The sustainability of that work is integral for continued long-term impact. It’s been a pleasure to dive deep into the topic and share back what we’ve learned to support our communities’ youth and their work.
Jennifer Splansky Juster: Thank you, Liz and Mike. In today’s conversation—I’ve already started using these terms, sustainability and resilience. Could you share the definitions for us for each of those terms that you used in the guide, just to set kind of a baseline shared understanding with all the listeners?
Mike Des Jardins: Resilience is a practice that enables collaborations to consider the changes occurring in their communities in real time and learn how to navigate them. It’s a collaboration’s effort to increase its capacity to bounce back from setbacks, mobilize around emerging opportunities, take time to reflect, and be prepared for future challenges in these days of rapid change and disruption. Resilience, which is the ability to adapt to emerging opportunities and respond to unanticipated challenges, it really is an essential capacity. Resilience is about building a collaboration’s capacity to shift, adapt, and change, and it is also focused on the overall health and wellbeing of the collaboration and the community.
At its core, resilience is about being able to navigate the ups and downs of communities and community change. Just to tie it to the previous podcast, resilience is closely tied to sustainability because it provides for the foundational internal health of the collaboration to be able to navigate the sometimes-changing external factors of sustainability, which include things like people, resources, processes, and impact.
Liz Weaver: I want to jump in here because we, in doing research in the guide around the topic of both sustainability and resilience, we’ve noted that sometimes people push back on this idea of resilience because resilience, you mentioned, Jen, that we’ve all gone through significant change over the last three years, and I would say that that change showed some of the inequities that really our communities are facing, our collaboration tables are facing, and so these inequities have been known to us for some generations, but they really laid bare and laid visible during the pandemic. The inequities are in place largely because there are White-dominated systems which exclude many individuals in our communities. We see that in the communities that we work with across Canada.
The critique about the word resilience is really well founded. Those individuals who are excluded may not have the capacity to be engaged and to fully navigate communities, or they may not have the resources to be able to participate in communities in the ways that we hope they can participate in. This notion of resilience, this ability to bounce back may not be fully applied or fully available to everybody in our community. I think that this is particularly important as we think about collaboration work. We’re really talking about the notion of collaborations being resilient, and when collaborations are resilient, they really need to also think about who in the community is being impacted positively and negatively. That’s a critical component for the collaboration’s work and that’s something we raise in the 10 Guide.
Jennifer Splansky Juster: Thanks, Mike and Liz. Thank you for adding that important live conversation in the field right now around the terms resilient and the recognition that frankly, we wish individuals didn’t have to be resilient to the systems that are oppressing them and the onus needs to be on those with power to improve systems and we want residents and community members to be engaged in our collaboratives and processes as the work unfolds as well.
The trick of creating spaces that are welcoming, creating collaboratives that are creating spaces of belonging, creating collaboratives, as you all talk about in Part 1, that really put equity at the center of who is involved and how, to shift those systems as well recognizing that the need to be resilient is not the burden or the onus of community members to carry, but as a result of the inequitable systems that cause them. I really appreciate that nuance and something to hold as we think through collaborative resilience.
Liz Weaver: The only thing I’d love to add here is that we’ve used the term. We’ve known that words change and meaning changes, and so we really welcome anyone who’s listening to the podcast to reach out and let us know what terms are better or more useful to you or terms that you use. Because we view these as living documents even though they’ve been kind of put out there at one point in time. Mike and I are committed to really listening to feedback and to upgrading and shifting in real time. Any feedback that people want to share we’re welcome to.
Jennifer Splansky Juster: Liz and Mike, thank you for that. You are both demonstrating such a learning orientation in this and I always admire that about you and your work at the Tamarack Institute. In Part 1 of the podcast, you told us a little bit about why you created the guide. Today, I’d love to hear a little bit more about why you chose to separate into 10 really good factors for sustainability and 10 factors for resilience. We’ll be going into the resilience factors today but help us understand a little more about why you split those into two different sections.
Liz Weaver: Thanks for the question, Jen. It is interesting. Tamarack, we put together a number of guides where we look at this idea of 10. Some of you on the podcast may be familiar with some of the other guides, which are guides focused on including individuals with the lived-in living experience of poverty from their perspective and navigating the future of work for youth and employers.
When we were researching and writing this 10 Guide, we knew that sustainability was a key factor in terms of what was front of mind for collaborations and collaborative work, but we also recognized that things are very dynamic particularly in the community context. So pieces of the puzzle are moving in real time and even as you begin to intervene in the community, the community begins to respond in ways that both you hoped for or you don’t even expect.
So we wanted to really tease out this notion of resilience, of being able to act, react, and adapt, and to really think about communities as places where change is happening in real time, and so that didn’t exactly fit within the sustainability area and so resilience came up as a factor. It also raises the idea for us that in the collaborative context, not everything needs to be sustained.
So if you are changing and adapting in real time, there may be new things that emerge that you might want to sustain, or things that you want to let go because the community has completed that work or the collaboration has completed that work. We felt like resilience was an important, or this ability to act and react and change in real time was an important competency to include in the guide.
Jennifer Splansky Juster: Thank you. It turned out to be a really robust consideration in and of itself. You actually start by talking about assessing the resilience of your collaboratives to navigate and adapt to change. Thinking through an assessment of how resilient a collaborative is, tell us a little bit more about this section where you guide folks on assessing their resilience.
Mike Des Jardins: So we’re all experiencing the impact of rapid changes in our work, and in the last few years we had to navigate a pandemic. We all had to learn to work remotely and then for some of us, return to the workplace. We’ve had to navigate sickness in our families and the sense of being fearful about something we do not have a lot of expertise around so we’ve shifted our services and programs, engaged more meaningfully online, and gotten exhausted from that experience. Now we are learning to navigate new and emerging technologies such as artificial intelligence and ChatGPT so these are some of the large-scale changes over a three-year period.
They are likely smaller scale changes, new governments, new elected officials, new leaders at partner organizations, new or renewed community priorities, new collaboration priorities, new funding or decreased funding. Building our own organizations or collaboration capacity to navigate change is about building that resilience.
Something that I’d also add is that it also happens on multiple levels too, and so resilience happens on an individual level, at an interpersonal level between the actors of a collaboration, and then at a collaboration to systems level. Each of those layers then contributes to the overall health of the collaboration and its ability to withstand the change challenge and stress of the things that I’ve mentioned.
Jennifer Splansky Juster: And then you also pose 10 questions about building a sustainable and resilient collaborative that to me feel almost like a bit of a self-assessment on where you’re starting in terms of resilience. There are 10 but there are really like multiple within each of the 10 and so for this podcast I’m not going to ask you to speak through all of them but I do want our listeners to know that when you check out the guide, there is a useful section where Mike and Liz and colleagues go through 10 different inquiry areas to think about the starting point of sustainability and resilience for our collaborative.
But without further ado, let’s talk through some of the resilience practices and factors so there are 10 since it is a 10 Guide. I’m going to maybe start with Liz here and have you walk us through a hand of those what you call 10 really good resilience practices.
Liz Weaver: I’m going to start with the first one, and I’ll pick a couple from the first five but the first one is to build resilience from the top and the bottom, and so what we’ve seen in collaborative context sometimes is that people talk to people that they already know and they come up with the same solutions that they’ve come up with in the past.
What we’re suggesting as a better practice is to engage diverse leaders, to engage people from sectors that you may not typically engage with to bring in the perspective of people with lived and living experience with the wisdom and knowledge of navigating the problem from a person perspective, and in that way, you can really get a 360 understanding of what it is you’re trying to impact and what change you’re trying to see.
So having these diverse perspectives around the table, centering it in an equity lens which is one of the factors that we identified in a sustainability factor, this is how sustainability and resilience kind of connect together is so critical to this work, and actually really creates conditions for being able to navigate the dynamics of your community because you’re getting that 360 lens from your community so really important factor.
Another one is to engage with the unknown. Again, really important to build your practice around that and build your collaborations practice around that. You know who would have predicted the last three years as they unfolded, and so a lot of things were known but many, many more things were unknown, and we all had to act and react and adapt to those shifts and changes, and so it sometimes called the tolerance for ambiguity is another way of framing it but I like to say embrace the unknown. This is really saying, hey, this is the stuff that we know but we’re also going to be open to some of those things that change and might pop up in real time that we don’t know yet or we might come to know over the course of a longer-term process so engaging with that, having really good conversations.
I think resilience practices are really about having good conversations about each of these practices and saying, hey, here’s what we know, here’s what we don’t know, how comfortable are we with what we don’t know, and how much can we as a group tolerate leaning into the unknown. Mike, I’m going to turn it over to you to pick a couple of the resilience practices that you are intrigued by.
Mike Des Jardins: Yeah, you know, talking about the unknown so one of them is developing good enough plans and approaches to create capacity for experimentation and learning, and so we don’t know if a strategy is going to work but change is dynamic and so we have to try out new ideas and innovations to see if they spark impact. There’s lots of great practices in the field of social innovation that can build capacity for that experimentation and for learning.
Another one I love is being purpose-focused and values-driven and not opportunity-driven. I’m going to talk about that a little bit later so I may as well describe it here now that it’s really about not allowing opportunities to divert attention and resources from the main focus of the collaboration, and so it’s asking questions like how will this opportunity help us achieve our purpose, how will this opportunity activate and augment our values. It’s really important to stay focused and not be spread too thin trying to do everything all at once.
Jennifer Splansky Juster: Those are great but I’m not going to let you off the hook without asking about a couple more that I’m really intrigued by.
One is something that I often say but I’d love to hear you talk more about it, which is encouraging people to embrace the long term, the long-term commitment. Maybe, Liz, you can comment on that one.
Liz Weaver: For sure. I think we are all—many of us around these collaboration tables are problem solvers. That’s what we do in our day-to-day jobs. We focus on a problem and we try to resolve it in real time and meaningful ways.
What it means to embrace long-term commitment is to lean into the complexity of some of the challenges that we’re trying to tackle in our communities, whether it’s addressing poverty or homelessness or mental health and addictions. Those problems are complex, they’re multilayered, and people around the collaboration table will have different perspectives around those, and they’re not things that will be solved in a one-year funding window or in a five-year funding window. In fact, some of these problems have been around for generations and will take generations to solve, and so I think what we have to do in terms of building resilience is to prototype as Mike said, take some of those short-term solutions but then look at how are those solutions contributing to a long-term commitment to changing systems and having that higher level impact. I think the collective impact approach enables that in some ways to have this longer-term commitment to our community and to change.
Tamarack has been working for the last 20 years on ending poverty so we have the gift of a long-term window, and we’ve seen in Canada poverty rates decline from 17 percent to just now under five percent of poverty across Canada and so that’s a long-term commitment to an issue but we were able to see that decline over time, and many of the STRIVE initiatives across the U.S. have also seen real improvement in educational outcomes because they’ve had that longer term commitment.
Jennifer Splansky Juster: Thank you, Liz. The other one I want to hear a little bit more about is what you call in invest in capacity building for partners including organizing, advocacy, and peer learning.
Mike Des Jardins: So for that one, collaboration requires different mindsets and skillsets so you have to invest in capacity building of the collaboration partners to make sure that everybody is able to contribute at the same level, especially if there’s a power dynamic going on. We need to make sure that that’s flattened as much as possible by bringing everybody up to the same level together.
It includes capacity for the organization, being able to engage in a systems level and shared advocacy, and most importantly probably the peer learning and reflection that needs to be an ongoing piece of both sustainability and resilience, constantly coming back and looking at what you’re doing and what you can change to improve.
Jennifer Splansky Juster: Thank you. I know your 10 Guide on working with people lived and living with poverty does a really nice job talking about that so shout out to that guide for folks that might want to learn more about what Mike was just sharing. So these are great and I want to hear more about some examples of communities that have demonstrated or are really embracing some of these practices. Are there a couple from the guide that you could tell the listeners about?
Mike Des Jardins: I’m going to start and then I’m going to invite Liz to do one because she is closest to it, and so I don’t want to pretend like I know it as intimately as she does but a few examples. So Communities Building Youth Futures, both Yukon and Portage la Prairie, which is in Manitoba, both these collaborations are using the collective impact approach to cultivate a sense of belonging for youth and improve future outcomes for them in education, employment, and entrepreneurship.
So my thoughts about resilience for CBYF Yukon is they’re focused on developing a territory-wide youth strategy, and in that process, they are surrendering control in creating a collective agenda and a strategy that really sets aside egos and organizational competition and focuses on centering youth. They’re that purpose focused and values driven that I love so much about resilient collaborations, and that focus for them is on youth, and they’re doing that as we just talked about as one of the practices. They’re building that partner capacity with their members as they go to support the strategy as it unfolds.
For Portage la Prairie, they have something called a roving campus, and it’s an innovative model that redefines the notion of classroom. It engages students who are at risk of not completing high school on time due to nonattendance. So the roving campus removes as many barriers as possible that students face in their educational journey and turns the province itself into the classroom.
So in this way CBYF is developing sort of a good enough plan to test out a new idea like the roving campus while they leverage existing assets in the community for the function of the campus, and then the biggest picture of it all is nurturing the caring relationships between youth and community which impacts far more broadly than just the specific project.
Another example would be Transition Salt Spring which is in British Columbia. It’s a collaboration of 30 experienced volunteers which includes engineers, ecologists, economists, and educators, and they discovered that while the threats of climate change are very real, so too is the power of its vibrant community to find creative solutions together, and so they’ve worked together to create a community-led local climate action plan.
What I’ve found in talking to them is that they’ve been able to adapt to change, engage with the unknown of how best to deal with climate change in their local context. They embrace long-term commitment to the work that they’re doing, and most importantly again it’s about the people and relationships they’re building, strong relationships with each other and across sectors to animate their action plan.
The most important thing about their action plan is that it’s being created by the community when typically, these plans are led by local government so this creates the ownership and the engagement and the relationships necessary to support their work. Liz, maybe you want to talk about the Hamilton Roundtable for Poverty Reduction.
Liz Weaver: Yeah, happy to. This is an initiative I was involved in prior to joining Tamarack, and one that I follow quite closely. It’s been around almost, what, 15, 16, 18 years now so it has been one of those things that has—a collaboration that has navigated many transitions and had to embrace the unknown and encourage partners to embrace a long-term commitment.
One of the ways that they did this which was really unique—there were a couple ways that they did it. They really understood the difference between the leadership of the core table but continually engaging circles of folks in the community, and so in the very early design of the Hamilton Roundtable for Poverty Reduction, rather than setting up new working groups, they went to preexisting groups in the community and said, hey, we see an alignment between the work that you’re already doing in the community and the Hamilton Roundtable. So they built the table from 40 people very quickly to a table of 170 people through organizational affiliation with preexisting groups so that was one way of encouraging partners to a long-term commitment.
And then they did one additional thing that I think was really brilliant. They invited people, organizations, individuals, clusters of organizations in the community to identify solutions. They called them community solutions, solutions that were aligned with the vision of the roundtable of making Hamilton the best place to raise a child, and over time these solutions grew from 35 community-led solutions to a couple of hundred community-led solutions, and it actually was kind of a cool thing because that took the focus off the roundtable of having to lead out on actions because there was already a lot of action happening in the community, and to really focus on the systems and policy work that is so important to this long-term change.
It gave the leadership table and some of the core volunteers that capacity to drive systems change forward but also to celebrate and recognize the capacity that was already in the community and to engage the community in a really different way so it build resilience from the top at the leadership table and from the systems level, and from the bottom because people across the community were engaged and empowered to lead out. It nurtured caring relationships and it really encouraged partners to look across the long term so that’s some ways that communities can really both look inward to their work but also outward to the community and leverage and capacity of the community.
Jennifer Splansky Juster: Those are all really great, cool, interesting examples. I encourage folks to read about more in the case studies in the guide. I’m just curious, did anything surprise you in the process of creating the guide? Anything unexpected about the process or your learning along the way?
Mike Des Jardins: What surprised me the most about it was that there were so many individual people in collaborations that are already doing work around building sustainability and nurturing resilience. It wasn’t until I started to talk to collaborations that they started to recognize that, oh, wow, we are doing that stuff but we just don’t talk about it in that way, and so once they started to put it into concrete language, they’re like, OK, so we are on a journey here, and then the most important thing is to recognize those efforts, capitalize on opportunities to grow but then notice those gaps that might exist when they are taking a closer look, and then fill those gaps with some of the things that they might be learning through this process of engagement.
Jennifer Splansky Juster: Yeah, and Mike, I think the guide is a very helpful self-assessment, right? Like what are we doing, what might we be able to do differently so that makes a lot of sense. What about you, Liz?
Liz Weaver: For me what surprised me most, I think there are lots of things that appeared in the guide that are tools, that are practices or ways of thinking that might be helpful but I agree with Mike, being in conversation with communities as we are at Tamarack and as the Collective Impact Forum is with all the communities that are engaged with collective impact efforts, there is a lot out there. There are a lot of practices that are out there where people are learning and growing and shifting dynamics in their communities, and so thinking through how this shows up both as sustainability factors and resilience practices for me, just the factors that we landed on and the resilience processes that we uncovered are really reflective of the communities’ experiences that we learned about.
Jennifer Splansky Juster: Is there any final advice that you’d like to offer listeners? This has been fabulous and I know folks are going to take a lot away but is there anything final you’d like to add?
Mike Des Jardins: My big piece of advice is always to be super intentional, and this is for both sustainability and resilience so in planning for sustainability, nurturing your collaboration’s resilience, centering equity in your collaboration. None of these will be successful if they’re done off the side of your desk so you need to take the time and be intentional around them. Define sustainability, determine what needs to be sustained, invest in the supports that strengthen the internal health of your collaboration, and create an action plan to do all of these things.
In a little plug for us, Tamarack Institute has a sustainability self-assessment tool that would be very useful to support this process.
Liz Weaver: The advice that I might share with folks that are listening to the podcast is that you have to be purposeful but you also have to be patient, right? And so it is about that, that kind of balance of being purposeful, thinking about the progress that you’re making but also not having to tackle everything all at once because we know resilience and when we think about resilience in the collaboration context is that communities change. They’re dynamic. They’re shifting all the time, and so sometimes patience is waiting for that right opportunity to come forward in your community but purposefulness is keeping your eye out for those kinds of opportunities.
The other thing that I think is really important, we have the great good fortune of having some funders in conversation with us, and I do think it’s important to have conversations with your key partners, with your funding partners, with your government partners about these issues, about sustainability and resilience, and not go into these conversations having the answers but being really curious about what this means to them, and how patient and purposeful they can be.
Jennifer Splansky Juster: Those are great. Thank you, Mike, and thank you, Liz. It’s always awesome talking with you, and I learn so much every time we’re in conversation, and I know that listeners will also feel the same way having listened to this podcast so thank you so much for joining. Thank you to my colleague, Tracy, for producing this episode, and I also want to encourage folks to check out Part 1 to the sustainability and resilience conversation if you’re listening to this one first. Part 1 on sustainability is a must-listen so I encourage you to do that as well so thank you all and have a wonderful day.
(Outro) And this closes out this episode of the Collective Impact Forum podcast. If you are interested in learning more about what was discussed, you can find links to resources in the footnotes for this episode, including a link to part 1 of this discussion as well as to the resource “10: A Guide for Building a Sustainable and Resilient Collaboration,” which is free to download from the Tamarack Institute.
We would like to acknowledge that this episode was produced and edited on the unceded, traditional lands of the Coast Salish people, including the Duwamish, Suquamish, Stillaguamish, and Muckleshoot tribes. We honor with gratitude the land itself and the past, present, and futures of these tribes.
The Intro music for this episode was composed by Rafael Krux and our outro music is composed by Kevin Macleod.
This is Tracy Timmons-Gray, Associate Director here at the Collective Impact Forum, and your podcast host. I want to say thank you so much for listening, and we look forward to connecting with you more in our next episode. Until next time, we hope you are safe and well.