We have a deep dive discussion about a new resource called the Racial Equity Toolkit that’s free to download and available now in the Collective Impact Forum library. The Racial Equity Toolkit is designed to support backbone staff and partners to operationalize racial equity throughout their collective impact work.
In this episode, we talk with toolkit authors Dominique Samari and Paul Schmitz about what’s in the toolkit and the ways that teams can explore it to advance their own equity work.
Please find a transcript of this talk further down this page.
Resources and Footnotes
- Resource: Racial Equity Toolkit
- Webinar: Exploring the Racial Equity Toolkit
- Centering Equity in Collective Impact
- Targeted Universalism
- Community Engagement Toolkit
- Kin Universe
More on Collective Impact
(Intro): Welcome to the Collective Impact Forum podcast, here to share resources to support social change makers working on cross-sector collaboration.
The Collective Impact Forum is a nonprofit field-building initiative that is co-hosted in partnership by the nonprofit consulting firm FSG and the Aspen Institute Forum for Community Solutions.
In this episode, we are doing a deep dive discussion about a new resource called the Racial Equity Toolkit that’s free to download and available now in the Collective Impact Forum library. The Racial Equity Toolkit is designed to support backbone staff and partners to operationalize racial equity throughout their collective impact work. We talk with toolkit authors Dominique Samari and Paul Schmitz about what’s in the toolkit and the ways that teams can explore it to advance their own equity work. Interviewing Dominique and Paul is Collective Impact Forum executive director Jennifer Splansky Juster. Let’s listen in.
Jennifer Splansky Juster: Well, hello, everybody, and welcome to today’s podcast. I’m Jennifer Juster, executive director of the Collective Impact Forum and I’m happy to be with you moderating today’s conversation with my wonderful colleagues, Dominique and Paul.
Last year, the Collective Impact Forum partnered with the Stanford Social Innovation Review to carry the sponsored online series, Collective Impact, 10 Years Later. The series elevated the perspectives of collective impact practitioners, funders, thought leaders, and intermediary support organizations, and we had a real throughline related to the importance of putting equity at the center of collective impact work. A foundational piece in that series was an article that focused on the evolution of putting equity at the center of collective impact work in an article called, Centering Equity in Collective impact. In particular, the article elevates the elements of how to put equity at the center of collective impact work, and we introduced five strategies for doing so.
As companion to the centering equity article, co-author Paul Schmitz and colleague Dominique Samari have created a fantastic toolkit which is designed as a really practical set of reflection and tools to help people implement these five strategies for centering equity. Today, we’re joined by Paul and Dominique who will walk us through an overview of the toolkit and share advice and insights about using it in practice. Before handing it over to them, I will briefly introduce them and then ask them to do a bit more of a self-introduction as well.
First, I am so glad to have Dominique Samari joining us. She is an experienced attorney, strategist, coach, and facilitator. She cofounded P3 Development Group, and created and recently launched Kin Universe, a technology platform that helps individuals and organizations build social capital, increase trust, and strengthen the connections across difference.
I’m also joined by Paul Schmitz, CEO of Leading Inside Out, and a senior adviser of the Collective Impact Forum. He’s also the author of Everyone Leads: Building Leadership from the Community Up. Both Paul and Dominique spend a lot of time working with communities at coaching and consulting with them in their collective impact and other efforts, and I really encourage you to both read more about them online.
But I also want to give Dominique and Paul a chance to introduce themselves. So, Dominique and Paul, welcome, and before we get started, I just would love to hear, have you introduce a little bit more about yourself and your work as it brings you into today’s conversation.
Dominique Samari: So, I am really excited to be here. As you mentioned, I’m a cofounder at P3 Development Group and recently launched Kin Universe.
For me, at the core of the work that I do around equity and inclusion, it’s really about the personal work that we need to all do in order to advance this work in our organizations and society. And we’re going to get into it a little bit, inside the toolkit, but I do a bunch of other stuff outside of my consulting, and it’s all about like how do we as humans really start to wrestle with the big issues inside of us that help us create the world that we want to actually create.
Jennifer Splansky Juster: Thank you for being here with us today, Dominique.
Paul Schmitz: So, I have obviously done this work with the Collective Impact Forum for a few years, but before that, I spent 21 years doing grassroots leadership development and community building in an organization that was majority people of color in leadership and staff and participants of the communities we worked in, and so this has been work that I’ve been kind of learning through for 30 years. And Dominique and I began working together on projects about five years ago with collective impact efforts, and the two of us encountered a lot of these issues and have certainly have learned a lot from Dominique and with Dominique as well as we’ve kind of tried to work with groups around these issues. And so I think what we bring is really from both our experiences and from my experience, but also from the work I’ve had the opportunity to do with a lot of groups and a lot of time spent with Dominique thinking about how to work with groups on these things.
Jennifer Splansky Juster: Tell us a little bit more about the purpose of the toolkit and why you decided to put it together.
Paul Schmitz: So, I think the first thing is that having worked on the article with all the coauthors on centering equity in collective impact, was the chance to take all the learning and trying to put it together. What do we actually really see? But also, the recognition that an article is great and gives people something to think about and some examples, but what do you do with that?
And so I think the thought was how do we convert this article into a practical toolkit that people can use to learn, to plan, to assess, to improve, and so the thought was taking that article as a basis and thinking about how do we help groups really think about what it means to ground the work in data and context and target solutions or focus on systems change with equity, or shift power within collaboratives, or listen and act with community, or build equity in leadership and accountability, but what does it actually look like to do those things?
I’ve always been very practical and wanted to keep things like what can you do with this? So how do you actually do these things? What does it look like to do them? That was really the genesis for us was using these areas and thinking about what does it look like to do these?
Dominique Samari:Yeah, I completely agree. I think the conversations that we’ve been having across organizations, we definitely see the motivation and the intention to do this work, but people are struggling with how to practically get the work done. So the idea of really taking the lessons that we’ve learned, the insights, and really what we’re doing in our role as consultants with individuals and organizations and translating that into a toolkit where a broader audience can use the tools was really compelling.
Jennifer Splansky Juster: Where do you all see people in collectives and organizations struggling to center equity? And maybe a part of that it would be helpful to ground us in the definition of equity that you use in your work.
Dominique Samari: I’m going to ask Paul to chime in with the definition of equity because they use a definition of equity inside of the article that I think is amazing and powerful.
Paul Schmitz: You know, when we did the article, we really were influenced by our colleague, Junious Williams’s work at the Urban Strategies Council and the definition that they use, which we adapted, but found really helpful as a starting point, which is, we defined it as fairness and justice achieved through systematically assessing disparities in opportunities, outcomes, and representation, and redressing those disparities through targeted actions.
So the idea there, again, and I want to kind of highlight these three things that’s opportunities, it’s outcomes, but it’s also representation. So we were looking across all three of those and again, if equity is that distance and the disparity that people have, how we actively redressing in targeted ways those disparities that people experience?
Dominique Samari: So I think what we see coming up, the kind of places where people are bumping up against consistently, I frame under one big umbrella, which is that it’s hard to move from our default mode of doing things, right? So our default mode of doing things is humans and our default mode of doing things inside of kind of a organizational or structural landscape. The issues that we see are issues around shifting power, and so, how do we shift power and bring new voices, diverse voices to a table without losing voices that bring resources and connections and like how do you actually balance that, right? How do we have the difficult conversations? How do we actually prepare ourselves to have the difficult conversations without causing further harm to people of color inside of our organizations? How are we actually using data in a way that supports equity? So what does really look like? How are we bringing our personal and emotional side of our leadership into this work? So, what does it look like for me as an individual when I bump up against the hard things around equity work in the inside of my equity journey? What does that mean for me as far as me being a leader inside of an organization?
These are some of things that we are seeing, and then of course, there are those that are not supportive of this work that are working inside or alongside our organizations, and so what does that look like? Paul, what else are you seeing?
Paul Schmitz: I mean I think that’s right on, and we know it just emphasized the point about the thing that really struck me early on in collective impact was seeing people talking about equitable results and outcomes while filling rooms with White people, and there were not places where people are looking in the mirror and asking like, how do we be equity in order to do equity? So that’s one thing that I just always am amazed by this day is groups and coalitions that aren’t looking at themselves first and understanding that.
Then, as you said, it’s that issue of like how do you get that balance and how do you create an environment where people can collaborate, but I see that as a big, big, big piece of it. And then I think just that culture of how—if you change who’s at the table, the table itself changes, and I think a lot of groups want to diversify without anything changing and with control and power where they are. And I think that’s the part, you know, you talked about that I think again is worth emphasizing because it’s like that’s what we run into is it’s like we want equity on our terms which isn’t equity, and we want to change the table, who’s at the table, but it’s still our table and we’ll pack up our bags and go home if we don’t like what’s going on, versus really creating an environment where we’re sharing power working together in ways that are truly equitable.
So I think it’s that interpersonal—I feel like groups have gotten good at analyzing data and understanding disparities and being like we need to like address that and because we work mostly in American cities, that concept is typically race and people have gotten better at that, but I think it’s the interpersonal and group dynamics and power dynamics that are more the issue.
Jennifer Splansky Juster: Yeah. And you shared a bit about the challenges and the experiences that you’ve had and that you’ve worked with collectives through and I imagine that that’s really informed how you designed the toolkit. So can you tell us a little bit, give us a little bit of an overview of the toolkit, what’s in it before we go a little bit deeper into how to use it?
Paul Schmitz: So again, we approached it by asking what does it look like to do these things and try to be as practical as possible, and think about a lot of it is questions asking people to reflect and look at themselves and look at the practices and what they can do.
It begins with a lot of self-work, and we’ll talk more about that I think later because it’s a really important topic but to do this work you have to first work on you before you can do it, and people have to get clear about their own journeys and where they are to do this work.
We looked at these five areas and thought about so what does it look like to groundwork in data in equity, I mean data in context, and what does it mean to practice this thing called targeted universalism which is often the way people approach it, and how do we look at data. Sometimes you will see being data driven and being inclusive or community engaged as being kind of somehow separate versus there’s ways to tie those together and we talk about that.
When we talk about systems change, you know we go back to that great resource, The Water of Systems Change, and look at kind of the six areas of systems change and kind of really analyze how are you addressing racial equity within each of those six areas.
Within shifting power, we look at mapping and analyzing power at the tables you sit at, and then talk about practices that can actually shift power. How do you actually shift power at a table and share power?
We talk about listening and acting with community, and there we created with the Collective Impact Forum a few years ago a community engagement toolkit that has a lot of resources so we thought we didn’t want to re-create that so we thought about what are some new questions and ways of thinking and some practices people can do to better listen and act with community, really about how do you understand the community like on the community’s terms and not come in with your own biases and perspectives and perceptions of what to look for and what matters and what people value.
And finally in terms of building leadership, equity in leadership and accountability, we did this activity of we thought about leaders we knew who did this really well, and we thought about what they did well. What are the things that they’ve done that have earned them the kind of respect and belief that they’re leaders who really care, and we made a list of those qualities, and so we used those as the basis of the last tool for people to really think about how do they do these practices individually, and then what would it mean for a collective or a backbone entity or a collaborative itself to do these things? What does it look like to do these things, and again, they’re very practical things.
So again, the toolkit walks people through practical examples with questions, reflections, and exercises that can help you actually shape it and do it.
Jennifer Splansky Juster: Tell us a little bit about your thoughts on how folks should use the toolkit.
Dominique Samari: So we designed the toolkit so that the personal work around equity and inclusion is up front, and the reason that we did that is exactly what Paul said. It’s that what we see people bumping up against most often is the personal work, and so the work that individuals actually need to do around this.
I think oftentimes we separate our equity and inclusion work from our work as leaders but I think it is intertwined with who we are as a leader, and this personal part, at least for me and where I sit, is the critically important part that is really defining who we are as leaders. And so we teach a course on adaptive leadership and it’s all about, at least in part, unpacking your emotional stakes and your identity stakes inside of any challenge. Part of this work is about unpacking your emotional and identity stakes, and getting really clear about that before you just press forward to some equity and inclusion strategies.
So we often hear leaders talk about they just want a racial equity and inclusion strategy or can you just design a racial equity and inclusion committee or just give us the work plan, and it’s so much more than that. It really is about defining who you are inside of this work, and in order for you to do that you have to get clear about who you are inside of this work, and that requires unpacking who life has shaped you to be, like what are the forces outside of yourself that have created all of the identities that allow you to see the world as you do, and we all have those forces, right?
In order to do that, it requires us and people of color and White leaders to deal with some really difficult stuff when you start to dig deep enough but that’s the work that’s required.
Paul Schmitz: Yeah, and I think that, you know, by having people reflect on their personal journey, on the forces in society that have impacted their ancestors and lives, the behavior patterns, those defaults that Dominique talked about, that people get sucked into those patterns that people have that they don’t even think about, and their own networks, you know, who do people engage with and listen to and work with.
I think by really doing that work and again, I think the encouragement is that people begin doing the self-work, then come together with their team to share and kind of process that together maybe with a facilitator if they feel that’s helpful but generally the toolkit also is something that will probably be different for White people and people of color to use, and we kind of acknowledge that up front that for some people it’s about reflecting on your journey towards consciousness and action to dismantle racism and contribute to equity, and for other folks, for people of color, it’s really about reflecting on how racism has impacted them and how it informs how people show up and approach the work. So it’s going to kind of land differently with different people.
And I think the other thing about the toolkit is that one could work through it as a whole over time with a group but it also can be used kind of using individual tools and worksheets, kind of cafeteria style. So I think there’s different ways that groups could approach it. They could pick a couple tools and really just get started and get into it. They could just do the personal part and get to know each other and really work through that, and then take one of the others and maybe like later on pick up another one or there might be an issue they’re really experiencing with community engagement, and right now to listen to and act with community is really relevant to them or they’re rethinking their board dynamics and sharing power worksheets are really helpful right now.
So again, I think it’s something that people could work through comprehensively and really work through how we can practice this in a 360 way, or they can pull out pieces and work on those pieces at different times.
Jennifer Splansky Juster: So with all of that, how do you think about who would find value in using this toolkit?
Paul Schmitz: You know we definitely thought about it with kind of backbone and governance leadership probably at the front of our minds, of the people who are kind of facilitating and leading because they’re the ones who set the tone and facilitate and make it possible for everyone else to do the work, and if they’re committed to it and doing it, that’s where it starts.
So to us it would be something that the backbone staff would do ideally and think about how to engage their steering committee and others in the collective impact effort to work with them on it. Now could an organization use a lot of these tools? Again, I think a lot of these tools would be helpful in a variety of settings so I think again there’s different ways but I think our core audience when we thought about it was kind of backbone staff and key partners and leaders in the collective impact effort working together, and using it as a way for people to build relationships while they—and build trust and build connection and build understanding while at the same time building these practices through their efforts.
Dominique Samari: I don’t think we can overstate that part of the toolkit, and so the relationship building, the trust building, that is a critical part of the equity and inclusion part, and a critical part of using the toolkit as a team.
The only thing I would add to that is there is a readiness component to using the toolkit. Because so much of the upfront work is around the personal exploration, there is this opportunity for it to cause harm for people of color inside of the organization if it’s not used thoughtfully or carefully or it’s not used in a way that really centers them inside of the process I think and centers the work, and so for individuals who maybe are very new on their journey and are unsure, it may be helpful and we point this out inside of the toolkit, it may be helpful to hire a third-party facilitator or someone who can help guide them through the toolkit and facilitate conversations in a way that reducing harm to individuals.
Jennifer Splansky Juster: That’s a really important element to name, Dominique, the readiness component.
So in order to help make it even a little bit more concrete for folks, I’d love to hear you all voice over a few pieces of what’s inside the toolkit, maybe some of the exercises or reflection questions that you prompt for people throughout.
Paul Schmitz: I think the important thing here is that the toolkit itself is not this place that has all your answers. It is a place that’s going to require you to ask a lot of questions and have a lot of conversations with each other to apply lessons or examples we have but just a couple examples like up front we have people create a racial equity journey map where we ask you to think about what are a half dozen or so kind of life experiences, books, inspirations, people that have kind of led you to the equity journey that you’re on, like what have been those kind of milestones in that journey, things you’ve learned, people you’ve known, experiences you’ve had that have led you there.
We also have people think about—we have a list of discrimination and bias patterns and have people think about which of those they default to, and think about how it shows up in your life and how it impedes you.
If we take the example of systems change where we look at things, we give examples of what it looks like, what inequity looks like in terms of mental models and narratives or in terms of relationships and connections or power dynamics, and then ask questions of like how do you actually do things that, you know, if we take relationships and connections, we ask from the standpoint of the intended beneficiaries or people that you’re trying to impact. Are there barriers caused by the lack of coordination like how well do partners in the system trust each other so we have a bunch of questions that kind of guide you through each part of it.
In terms of shifting power, we ask people to kind of diagram their steering committee and key groups within their effort and analyze and think about how do power dynamics show up, and then share some practices that shift power and invite people to think about what practices that would help them mitigate any imbalance that they see.
So again it’s like sharing some ideas, giving people space to ask questions, to play with them and think about them and consider. Those are just some examples of things that are in there.
Dominique, any other just reflections or thoughts on the tools themselves?
Dominique Samari: No, it is mostly taking you through—with the addition of the personal reflection, the five strategies laid out in the article, right? And so just some practical questions and tools and practices that help you walk through those but also because Paul and I are planning consultants, at the end really try to move you towards developing your own agendas so by the end, really looking at, OK, what are the steps you’re going to take so it’s not just about reflections but now that you have reflected, what are your priorities, what are your goals, and how do you actually move this work forward in a way that you can hold yourself accountable.
Jennifer Splansky Juster: I really appreciate how it is very deep on the reflection and the questions but leading you into planning as well into the next steps so thanks for calling that out, Dominique.
You have explored these exercises with many clients and communities. What kinds of experiences have you seen, or success stories or challenges come up?
Paul Schmitz: I think the first thing that we experience is people resisting doing the personal work, is that people want to get to like, “no, what does my organization do, how do I do this?” and not realizing that unless you dealt withyourself as a leader and what it means to be a leader practicing racial equity, you can’t do the work within your organization.
That’s why we again keep emphasizing that probably the first quarter of the toolkit is focused on your personal journey and really looking at yourself, and then ideally sharing that with your team because it’s building that trust and conversation of vulnerability within the group that allows you then to really get—be really committed to doing the work outside. You have to begin within to do that work. You have to be it to do it in a way or least strive to be it to strive to do it because none of us are kind of perfect at it. That’s something we most see, is impatience with doing the personal work, and people wanting to get to the organizational work.
Then I think it’s that thing about power, and I think that’s one of the things when we were writing the article we struggled with, and that Dominique certainly and I with clients have struggled with is like as groups become more inclusive, sometimes the more powerful people leave, and how do you create an environment—and you need their power to affect the change you’re trying to do but they tend to not like the mushy stuff and not want to do all the processing stuff so how do you create an environment of trust. To me it really goes back to like if you’re committed to these outcomes you say you care about and have brought you to this table, whatever that is in education or health or whatever, you’ve got to be willing to do this work if you’re serious about really making a difference, and this is part of that process. Not doing this process is why we have the results we have today in the community, whatever those are.
So trying to get those leaders to see that in doing this work, we have a chance of actually building a strategy and plan that could actually change the way things work because the status quo is producing the levels of whatever challenge we’re trying to deal with right now, and so I think that is—those two things I see the most, the resistance and some fear, trepidation about doing the personal work which I think often once people do it and share it, they actually feel more relief and kind of support, and the people in the more formal kind of leadership roles and with more power kind of bending away from the process when it gets into doing this work. Dominique, what do you—what else have we seen?
Dominique Samari: I think a couple other things. I love that the article is called Centering Equity because I think what we often see as well is equity off to the side, and so we’re going to do—OK, we’ll create this equity table and we’ll create but it’s off to the side from our main work, right? So how are we actually bring—it is the work, right? It is the strategic work, and so how are you really marrying that with the work that you say you’re doing? A lack of accountability I think when it’s pushed off to the side, then there’s a lack of accountability. So we say we’re doing equity work, we talk about equity work but we’re not holding ourselves accountable in the same way that we hold ourselves accountable to our quote-unquote strategic work or our quote-unquote real work.
And then like Paul said, it’s this assumption that—let me back up. It’s actually more a tactical approach to diversity, and so we’re adding people to the table without really contemplating or doing any work around the power and the culture building and what it actually means in order to create new tables. We’re making the assumption that we can just add new voices to the table as long as everything else remains the same, and so those are the three things that really stand out to me. I continue to see people just like, yeah, we’re doing the work, and they’re calling that the work but it’s not the work.
Jennifer Splansky Juster: Yeah, thank you, Dominique and Paul, for those reflections. Before we close out, I just want to ask if there are any final recommendations you have to support people doing this work.
Dominique Samari: The thing that comes up for me immediately is that—a couple of things—is that we currently live and work inside of a culture of busyness, and this work requires a certain amount of spaciousness because it does, and so—in all honesty, for the problems that we’re all saying we’re trying to solve, we need an amount of spaciousness that we do not give ourselves. We need the room to think. We need the room to process, and we don’t give ourselves the time to do that.
So you don’t have these kind of conversations in an hour meeting and then force your employees to go into some other kind of, I don’t know, but like you need some space around these conversations, so I want to call that out. And then two, I lost my second thought in sharing my first thought. What was my second thought? Paul, do you have any thoughts and maybe I’ll think of my second thought.
Paul Schmitz: I think that the main thing I would recommend is just try it on. I think that if people are worried like what if I share these things like I think that I’ve learned in my experience and my journey that that authenticity, that vulnerability, that openness to kind of really exploring in an honest way who I am and how I do this work has often built the strongest relationships in this work, and at the same time I think that that spaciousness which I think is so essential, this is relational work. It’s something that—going through these tools with a group will change you, will change the way the group works together, will change the conversation. So I think that that’s really the opportunity. It’s not just that—the process itself is part of the outcome because the process will build trust, it will build connection, it will build relationship at the same time you’re trying to address these things and build an entity that has a much better chance if it’s doing it well of getting to the equitable results that we actually exist for because again we’re not doing collective impact to heal ourselves but if we can actually improve ourselves en route to improving education or health or other outcomes in our community, that’s great but it needs to be in service to the outcomes that we do the work but we can’t get to those outcomes if we’re not real about what’s needed.
Dominique Samari: Yeah, I completely agree. I think this work is so relational, and I think without the—the thing I was going to share earlier was that there is at least some modicum of grace required but that grace cannot show up without relationship. You have to be in relationship to offer grace, in some relationship, in some semblance of a relationship to offer grace.
Finally, it is an equity and inclusion journey. It doesn’t actually end. I think we’re so used to putting bookends on things like we started this work and we’re going to end this work by this date but that is not how this work ends or that’s not how this work goes. That being said, that doesn’t mean you should not be held accountable. That does not mean you should not have metrics. That does not mean you should not have goals. That does not mean you should not have timelines associated with how you are working inside of your equity and inclusion journey. It’s about holding both.
Jennifer Splansky Juster: Yeah, and that’s a great point I think to end on so thank you, Dominique. Thank you, Paul and Dominique, for not only joining us today but a huge thank you for all of the thoughts and work going into creating the toolkit itself. It promises to be an incredibly valuable resource for practitioners and communities doing collective impact work and working to put equity at the center so thank you so much. We will put a bookend on this podcast though and thank everybody for listening and wish everyone good health. Take care.
(Outro) And this closes out this episode of the Collective Impact Forum podcast. If you are interested in learning more about the Racial Equity Toolkit or downloading a copy yourself, you can find a link to it in the footnotes of this podcast or just visit the resource section of our website at collectiveimpactforum.org.
We are also hosting a free webinar with Paul and Dominique on April 18 at 3pm Eastern to explore more about the Racial Equity Toolkit and how to use it. Visit the events section of our website at collectiveimpactforum.org to register.
We would like to acknowledge that this episode was produced and edited on the unceded, traditional lands of the Coast Salish people, including the Duwamish, Suquamish, Stillaguamish, and Muckleshoot tribes. We honor with gratitude the land itself and the past, present, and futures of these tribes.
The Intro music for this episode was composed by Rafael Krux and our outro music is composed by Kevin Macleod.
And for those interested in more upcoming learning events, registration is open for our virtual Collective Impact Action Summit that will be held on April 25-27, 2023. The Action Summit is our biggest learning event of the year, featuring over 40 online sessions that will share cutting-edge thinking and lessons learned about how collaboration can help address the complex issues we are facing.
And a big plus for being virtual is that we’re recording all the sessions and sharing those recordings with attendees after, so you’ll be able to plan a schedule that fits best with you, and watch other sessions later.
Early-bird registration is closing March 31, so if you are interested in joining the Summit and interested in getting some extra savings, we recommend registering before then. Please visit the Events section of CollectiveImpactForum.org to learn more about this year’s Collective Impact Action Summit.
This is Tracy Timmons-Gray, Associate Director here at the Collective Impact Forum, and your podcast host. I want to say thank you so much for listening, and we look forward to connecting with you more in our next episode. Until next time, we hope you are safe and well.